INTERVIEW WITH MARIA HELENA SOUZA PATTO

ABSTRACT

This present text aims to share an interview with Maria Helena Souza Patto, a brazilian psychologist recognized as one of the main references in the theoretical-conceptual and methodological field of Educational and School Psychology towards the construction of critical perspective. A retired professor at the Institute of Psychology of the University of São Paulo, Maria Helena Souza Patto is the author of many books, articles and book chapters in Psychology and education. Her book ‘The production of school failure: histories of submission and rebellion’, a work that won the award in 1995, as the most relevant book for the area granted by APEOESP São Paulo/SP, which marks a break with traditional School and Educational Psychology, towards to the construction of new directions in the area. Although the interview took place 23 years ago, in 2001, its actuality is unveiled throughout the conversation, and many of the reflections there are essential to guide Psychology and Education professionals in the current context, especially to Psychologists whom work in the basic education network, an area that tends to grow in Brazil with the approval of Law 13935/2019. Initially, some biographical and bibliographic data of Professor Maria Helena are retrieved and then, the edited interview is presented, in collaboration with the author herself. With the publication of this historic interview, we hope to reiterate the relevance of Professor Maria Helena de Souza Patto to the Education and Psychology area, as well as highlight the aspects discussed during the interview.

Keywords:
Maria Helena Souza Patto; critical psychology; school psychology; psychologist professional role

RESUMO

O presente texto tem por objetivo partilhar uma entrevista realizada com Maria Helena Souza Patto, psicóloga reconhecida como uma das principais referências na virada teórico-conceitual e metodológica da Psicologia Escolar e Educacional brasileira abrindo possibilidades de elaboração de perspectivas críticas neste campo. Professora aposentada do Instituto de Psicologia da Universidade de São Paulo, Maria Helena Souza Patto é autora de diversos livros, artigos e capítulos de livros consagrados tanto na Psicologia como na educação. Merece destaque seu livro A produção do fracasso escolar: histórias de submissão e rebeldia, obra que ganhou o prêmio de livro de maior relevância para a área concedido pela APEOESP, em 1995, e que marca uma ruptura com a Psicologia Escolar e Educacional tradicional e propõe novos rumos para a área. Embora a entrevista tenha sido realizada há 23 anos, em 2001, sua atualidade desvela-se ao longo da conversa, sendo que muitas das reflexões ali tecidas são contribuições essenciais para orientar profissionais da Psicologia e da Educação no contexto atual, sobretudo no que se refere à atuação de profissionais da Psicologia na rede básica de ensino, área que tende ao crescimento com a aprovação da Lei 13.935/2019. Inicialmente, são recuperados alguns dados biográficos e bibliográficos de Maria Helena de Souza Patto e, em seguida, é apresentada a entrevista editada em colaboração com a entrevistada. Espera-se, com a publicação da entrevista com essa importante autora da Psicologia, reiterar suas contribuições para a área e ressaltar a relevância dos temas objeto da entrevista.

Palavras-chave:
Maria Helena Souza Patto; psicologia crítica; psicologia escolar; atuação do psicólogo

RESUMEN

En el presente texto se tiene por objetivo partir una entrevista realizada con María Helena Souza Patto, psicóloga reconocida como una de las principales referencias en el cambio teórico-conceptual y metodológico de la Psicología Escolar y Educacional brasileña hacia a la construcción de perspectivas críticas en este campo. Profesora jubilada del Instituto de Psicología de la Universidad de São Paulo, María Helena Souza Patto es autora de diversos libros, artículos y capítulos de libros consagrados tanto en la Psicología como en la educación. Merece realce su libro A produção do fracasso escolar: histórias de submissão e rebeldia, obra que se ganó el premio de libro de más relevancia para el área concedido por la APEOESP, en 1995, y que señala una ruptura con la Psicología Escolar y Educacional tradicional, hacia a la construcción de nuevos rumbos en el área. Aunque la entrevista haya sido realizada hace 20 años, en 2001, su actualidad se desvela a lo largo de la charla, y muchas de las reflexiones allí tejidas son contribuciones esenciales para orientar profesionales de la Psicología y de la Educación en el contexto actual, sobre todo en lo que se refiere a la actuación de profesionales de la Psicología en la red básica de enseñanza, área que tiende al crecimiento con la aprobación de la Ley 13.935/2019. Inicialmente, son recuperados algunos datos biográficos y bibliográficos de la autora. Después, se presenta la entrevista editada, en colaboración con la propia autora. Se espera, con la publicación de la entrevista, reiterar la relevancia de sus contribuciones para el área, así como poner de relieve los aspectos debatidos a lo largo de la entrevista.

Palabras clave:
María Helena Souza Patto; psicología crítica; psicología escolar; actuación del psicólogo

INTRODUCTION

If there is something practically undisputed in the area of School and Educational Psychology in Brazil, it is the impact produced by the psychologist Maria Helena Souza Patto’s production, a recognition that goes beyond agreement or not with her perspective. Considered by many authors as one of the main references in the process of theoretical-conceptual and methodological change in Brazilian School and Educational Psychology towards the construction of critical perspectives in this field. This goes back at least since the end of the 1970s and especially since the 1980s, Maria Helena has built a significant academic career, the hallmark of which is her rigorous criticism of Psychology in general and School and Educational Psychology in specific. In this construction, Patto made a radical break with her own vision in the beginning of her practice as a psychologist, researcher and professor at the Psychology Institute of the University of São Paulo, where she began teaching as soon as she graduated, in 1965, and worked intensely until she became retire in 2009.

The history deserves to be told, even if briefly: his Master’s Dissertation, defended in 1970 and published in the book Privação cultural e educação pré-primária (Patto, 1973), was constructed in the midst of environmentalist theories, a conception that until then seemed convincing, given the ideological accent that coincides with the first layers of the real (Bosi, 1992). As soon as she realized the gaps and contradictions present in such a conception, revealing his political commitment to justifying social inequalities, Patto took on the daily task of criticizing not only that, but several explanatory theories of the failure that marks Brazilian public education.

Her Doctoral Thesis, entitled Psicologia e ideologia: reflexões sobre a psicologia escolar, defended in 1981 and published in book form (Patto, 1984) is considered a milestone in this conversion. In short, the author develops a critical analysis of School Psychology, with emphasis on its constitution in Brazil, seeking to think about it from a historical perspective, considering that many of these theories do not even recognize the social origin in which they were constituted. In the light of a vast and innovative bibliography, Patto stresses that almost all dominant psychological theories share the ideological thesis, riddled with prejudice, that the poor and non-white people are inferior, whether due to congenital factors or acquired factors, sometimes having an irreversible feature, sometimes subject to treatment. On a solid theoretical basis, she carries out field research, taking as her object the work of psychologists in meeting school demands in public health services in the city of São Paulo. The analysis of the statements collected in the research reveals the dominant presence of a psychologizing view of school failure, identified in three types of action: carrying out psychodiagnosis (with emphasis on the application of intelligence and readiness tests); carrying out individual psychotherapy for students; and the creation of preventive and mental hygiene programs for parents, students, administrators and teachers, based on an adaptationist conception of mental health. The numerous criticisms of the psychologization of education made in the 40-year-old Thesis are impressively current.

Among his most relevant publications, the first edition of the book A produção do fracasso escolar: histórias de submissão e rebeldia, 34 years ago, certainly stands out (Patto, 1990). Resulting from his Free Teaching research, defended in 1987, this book diligently exposes the complexity involved in the historic Brazilian school failure, breaking with dominant simplistic readings. Such is its importance that this work won the APEOESP award for the most relevant book in the area, in 1995. Considered a classic (Carvalho, 2011), the book has been the author’s most referenced book, appearing in the basic bibliographies of many courses training psychologists and educators, both at undergraduate and postgraduate levels, and is also a reference in public competitions.

Its fourth edition deserves to be highlighted, marking 25 years of the original publication. Being a revised and expanded edition, the final part was included, entitled 25 years later, composed, among other texts, of the beautiful Afterword (Patto, 2015), written by the author herself, in which she weaves precious reflections about the construction journey theoretical-methodological research, recovering discussions that became central after the publication of the book, once again denoting its impact. Also worth mentioning is the chapter Quatro histórias de (re)provação escolar - Notas sobre o rumo das vidas de Ângela, Nailton, Augusto and Humberto (Souza & Amaral, 2015), which summarizes research that returned to the people followed in Patto’s classic research , who as adults look at their school past, whose life trajectories reinforce how much the thesis defended in the book has historical materiality.

In this sense, it is not wrong to say that both the Doctoral Thesis and the Free Teaching Thesis are two major milestones, not only in the production of Maria Helena Souza Patto, but also for Brazilian School and Educational Psychology. However, her contributions go beyond these classic works and Patto publishes authorial essays in two other books: Mutações do cativeiro (Patto, 2000) and Exercícios de indignação (Patto, 2005).

The author also organized, alone or in partnership with colleagues, collections of authors, with emphasis on the inaugural book Introdução à Psicologia Escolar, originally published in 1981, and relaunched in 1997, in a significantly revised and updated edition (Patto, 1981;1997); the book Pensamento cruel. Humanidades e Ciências Humanas: há lugar para a Psicologia? (Patto & Frayze-Pereira, 2007) and the book Formação de psicólogos e relações de poder: sobre a miséria da Psicologia (Patto, 2012). Also worth mentioning is the research A cidadnia negada: política públicas e formas de viver, a work coordinated by the author and published in book form (Patto, 2009). Not to mention the 27 articles published in journals and the various book chapters.

Among the changes included in the updated edition of the book Introdução à Psicologia Escolar (Patto, 1997), the inclusion of a chapter by the author, entitled O papel social e a formação do psicólogo: contribuição para um debate necessário, which had already been previously published in a journal that was difficult to access, as it was not available online (Patto, 1982). In it, the author discusses the necessary transition from a positivist empirical Psychology to a critical and dialectical Psychology, positioning herself (Patto, 1997, p. 463):

Critical reflection about Psychology and about the very science conception that underpins it is only possible within the scope of Philosophy [of praxis]. However, at its birth, Psychology declared it dispensable and immersed itself in the most absolute empiricism, ignoring the abstract nature of the empirical. And when we talk about Philosophy, we are referring to an indispensable dimension of human activity, to the systematic and critical effort that aims to capture the essence of phenomena, their hidden structure, the way of being of what exists, without losing sight of the human-social reality. as a historical and concrete totality.

Her body of work results in theoretical and methodological contributions that opened up space for the inclusion of themes traditionally neglected by School and Educational Psychology in Brazil. Her provocations are potent food for ethical and politically oriented action in the search for overcoming all forms of oppression, using historical-dialectical materialism as a theoretical reference. In this sense, it is not surprising that Maria Helena Souza Patto is considered a watershed in Brazilian School and Educational Psychology (Checchia, 2015).

Among the various contributions brought by the author, it is important to highlight as essential the power of the delicate exercise of self-criticism, which implies a willingness to repair one’s own contradictions (Viégas, 2020). Her movement, first personal, produced a collective movement, which had an important impact on opening new directions in the area. In fact, her work produced “fissures, both in the sense of opening cracks in the area and instigating other psychologists to work in search of overcoming some theoretical-practical vices that are so densely criticized” (Viégas, 2020, p. 14). Viégas (2020, pp. 14-15) continues by stating:

Since then, Brazilian School and Educational Psychology has been in crisis, which must be understood as its strength, not its weakness. This is because some naturalizations specific to the area have come under tension, giving materiality to a discursive and project dispute that has been taking shape in a sometimes more, sometimes less consistent way in the training of psychologists in several Brazilian states.

In this dispute, publications were born that began to incorporate elements that had previously been out of focus, constituting the construction of critical aspects, many of which recognize it as a fundamental reference. Based on historical materialist dialectics, studies of psychological phenomena within schools gained momentum, seeking to overcome reductionist and pathologizing readings of school complaints, which blame people from the popular and working classes. The construction of critical theoretical-practical perspectives in the area has also intensified, with the following publications worth highlighting:Machado and Proença, 1997;Bock, 1999;Tanamachi, Proença and Rocha, 2000;Bock, Gonçalves and Furtado, 2001;Souza, 2007;Souza, Silva and Yamamoto, 2014; Machado, Lerner and Fonseca, 2017.

Dispersed mainly from the 1990s onwards, it can be said that School and Educational Psychology from a critical perspective has been established since then. Thus, in 2001, Brazilian School and Educational Psychology had already theoretically and methodologically structured its critique of positivist-based Psychology, with Patto’s publications being among the main critical bibliographical references in our country.

An interview with the author was carried out at this time, carried out by (Irineu Aliprando Tuim Viotto Filho), as part of the data collection for the completion of the Master’s Dissertation defended at PUC/SP (VIOTTO FILHO, 2001). However, given due to the vicissitudes of the historical process, it was not possible to present the interview data in that Dissertation, whose theme was taken up, expanded and developed in the Doctoral Thesis defended in the Postgraduate Program in Educational Psychology at PUC-SP (VIOTTO FILHO, 2005), under the guidance of Prof. Dr. Mitsuko Makino Antunes. This interview became a theoretical-philosophical and methodological guide for deepening critical reflections about the characteristics and specificities of a critical perspective of Psychology for the work of school psychologists in the countryside of Brazilian public schools (VIOTTO FILHO, 2005).

Held in March 2001, in Professor Maria Helena Souza Patto’s room at the Institute of Psychology at USP-SP, the interview completed 20 years. However, its topicality is revealed throughout the conversation, and many of the reflections woven there are essential contributions to guide Psychology and Education professionals in the current Brazilian context, especially with regard to the performance of Psychology professionals in the Basic Education system teaching, an area that tends to grow with the approval of Law 13,935/2019 (2019).

In this sense, we emphasize that the content of the interview that we present to the reader, given its strength and theoretical consistency, deserves our appreciation today. We hope, with the publication of the interview, to reiterate the relevance of Professor Maria Helena’s contributions to the area, as well as highlight the aspects discussed throughout the conversation with her.

It is worth mentioning that, considering the two decades that separate the interview from its publication in the Journal, the transcription was sent to Professor Maria Helena Souza Patto, who read its content and gave editing suggestions for a better understanding of her speech, which were welcomed by the interviewer and authors of this text. For this publication, the interviewer’s speeches, Professor Tuim, will be indicated with the letter ‘T’ and Professor’s speeches Maria Helena with the letters ‘MH’.

THE INTERVIEW

T - Good morning Professor Maria Helena, I thank you for your attention and participation in my Master’s research that I am carrying out at PUC-SP with the purpose of discussing aspects from a critical perspective of School Psychology. Do you consider that in the work of psychologists today [2001], in Brazil, there is the possibility of working from a critical perspective?

MH - I would answer this question by saying yes and no! I think that Psychology can have a different social insertion than traditional Psychology, right? A social insertion that makes it clearer to the psychologists themselves what commitment they are assuming by doing School Psychology this way and not in the traditional way. Now I don’t think that psychologists, just like Psychology, or even Education, have the power to transform reality. Because there are historically established limits and I think that transformation occurs from the moment the collective repositions itself and acquires, especially the collective itself, a more critical awareness of reality and its insertion in this reality.

T-O What do you understand as possible elements in this critical perspective for the psychologist who works at school? What possibilities would it have from his work in building this perspective?

MH - Firstly, I really believe in school psychologists who develop Institutional Psychology work, working with groups and mainly with a view to opening spaces for reflection in the institution, that is, spaces that enable a philosophical attitude towards their practices, given what it means to be an educator in a country like Brazil, right? A space, therefore, in which people can ask themselves, given the reality of which they are part, what is this reality? How is she? Why is it what it is and what it is like? In whose interests am I working? And so on...

T - I believe that you already answer in a certain way the third question, which refers to the purposes of constructing a critical perspective in School Psychology.

MH - I think so. You first need to help people decrystallize themselves, get things moving. For example, in school institutions, which are generally very crystallized institutions, you put the word in motion, make people start talking and start listening. It is in this sense that you make the institution more dynamic, healthier, less committed to death, to obsessive rituals, right? And that’s how you free people to start reflecting about what they do.

T - With regard to the psychologist’s spaces within the school, as there is no position of school psychologist in the school, how do you understand the achievement of these areas of activity, especially in public schools?

MH - I think that, in recent years, a certain criticism of a certain Psychology - that which diagnosed children who were presenting some kind of schooling problem - ended up finding resonance with educators. Here at USP we have services in School Psychology that serve schools in the system, in the vicinity of the University City, and the teams carry out permanent work in these schools with interns. And currently, I see that the receptivity to other ways of including psychologists in schools is much greater than in the past. So I think the possibility exists, as the psychologist is able to get to schools and hear what the complaint is and make a work proposal. A proposal that moves away from the traditional way and involves the entire institution, working in groups and, at the same time, seeing whether or not there is receptivity to this type of proposal, whether there is space in that school institution for this type of work. And there usually is.

T - Regarding the theoretical, philosophical and methodological aspects that could guide this perspective, how do you recognize these theoretical elements necessary to equip the psychologist to reach school?

MH - Firstly, it is necessary to dismantle Psychology, that is, it is necessary to put Psychology in contact with the other Human Sciences, in the training of psychologists: History, Sociology, Anthropology and many others. Because it is from this contact with these other areas that Psychology can adopt a critical perspective. Without this it is impossible, as critical awareness comes, mainly, from a certain reading of the reality of the present, from a historical perspective, in which you see how this present was constructed throughout History, from a critical conception of History, as it is told, for example, from the historical materialist angle. So, theoretical references are not indifferent, as there are theoretical references that lead to a critical stance and there are historical references that do not lead to a critical reading of reality.

T - When you discuss this possibility of us advancing to philosophical consciousness, Saviani makes a very interesting discussion about the advancement of common sense to philosophical consciousness through critical knowledge. Do you think that psychologists need to go through this awareness movement and how can they leverage this?

MH - I think! I keep saying that the first thing psychologists need, to become professionals with another type of ethical and political commitment, is to think about their own thinking critically. A critical way of thinking about Psychology itself is underway, how it is established, based on what commitments, at what moment in Western History, etc. All of this is being done and must be present in training courses. But I think that Psychology, as long as it does not criticize itself, as long as it does not carry out its self-analysis about its emergence, its birth as a science at a certain moment in the History of the West, it has very little chance of doing anything other than reproducing a practice that absolutely maintains what exists.

T - Perfect! So, with regard to this possible praxis of Psychology and the school psychologist, how would you think about this praxis?

MH - I think it is, above all, through intervention with groups, and there are several theoretical possibilities of helping these groups in a critical way.

T - Recognize interventions with groups in the school institution!

MH - Yes. I really believe in the power of institutions to change. I think that, at a certain point in a group’s life, by bringing some type of knowledge to that group, you can change the configuration of the way it is organizing itself in institutions. So, I think that the psychologist has to bring information, act mainly in the group, to help the group to unblock itself, to abandon the rigidity of stereotypes and prejudices, to be aware of the mechanisms that are preventing this other stance. And when I talk about mechanisms, I’m talking about subjective, intersubjective mechanisms, that’s where Psychology sets in. A Psychology of the group and institutions, with a critical purpose.

T - I believe that you emphasize the specificity of Psychology’s work at school, in which the psychologist is not confused with the pedagogue or the teacher.

MH - Exactly. This confusion exists, it is an already established confusion and has a lot to do with psychologists’ ignorance about what they can effectively do in their professional specificity. Because, from the moment a certain Psychology (of applying tests and preparing reports, always contrary to the children’s interests) was the subject of criticism, psychologists often don’t know what to do. And in this sense, Psychology courses needed to review themselves, students needed to have much better training to deal with groups, institutions, whatever the institution, because we have psychologists in hospitals and other institutions, the courses don’t work on this too efficiently and psychologists end up getting lost.

T - Tell us more about how you think about the action of the school psychologist from the point of view of political action, contextualized action and political analysis of reality.

MH - When we talk about a psychologist who follows the opposite path, against the stereotypes, stigmas and prejudices, you are already committed to a value, and the values ​​that guide this action are classical values, the so-called humanist values, in that you are committed to people’s freedom, opposed to people’s oppression. However, Psychology itself can be oppressive, as the reports are true condemnations. If we want to move towards an egalitarian society, we want to break with hierarchies, we want to break with the inequality that exists from the point of view of power, from the point of view of rights, then psychologists must be committed at all times to values which have a very clear political connotation, as you want a fairer, more equal, less oppressive society, etc.

T - How would this be configured in the practice of a school psychologist?

MH - I think that the simple fact that school psychologists fail to produce true negative verdicts in relation to children from the working classes who attend public schools is already a great contribution. Then I am still defining what the psychologist does not do. And what could he do towards a practice that is more committed to equal rights? All children have the right to school. So, the psychologist goes to school to help educators who go about their daily lives, to become aware of the role they are playing and how they are reproducing society through undemocratic actions and oppression within society school, and help them think about how this could be overcome, what school should be like so that there would be equal rights to education, no matter what. the social level of children.

T - As the psychologist manages to articulate theory and practice and a contextualized reading of reality, do you think he will be able to advance in these transformative perspectives?

MH - I believe that the psychologist will only be transformative when he no longer looks at people as an in-itself and looks at people and their behaviors always inserted in a context that, so to speak, determines children’s academic failure. Lately, research has shown that failure is produced in schools. So, from the moment you look at it from this perspective, I think you open, so to speak, fronts of work that you did not have when you considered that learning problems were in the child and the family, both supposedly having disabilities, deficit, learning disabilities. So, this thing of expanding the psychologists’ view of the institution, seen here as a social institution, inserted in a concrete society that has certain characteristics, including the characteristics of Brazilian society, a society marked by inequality, by violence in relations between classes even today, and always marked by a tradition of rights as a favor. When it comes to the poor, everything that is right becomes a favor. So, if psychologists have a critical view of the country they are in and of the school institution in this country, that is, what public policies are like, what the history of public policies is like in Brazil, they will have space to think: how can I contribute for things to start moving in another direction?

T - Going into the issue of the school psychologist’s ethical-political commitment, what is your understanding in this sense, that is, the ethics of Psychology that is presented at school?

MH - Ethics for psychologists goes far beyond ensuring the confidentiality of medical records and information about clients, because this is how Ethics in Psychology is generally understood. Ethics is much more than that, you have to think about what your commitment is, what you value, what world would you like to help create? If you agree with this world that is out there, or if you don’t, what can you do as a psychologist? I think that the so-called humanist values ​​are like a compass, I am always trying to think of Psychology in tune with a free, fraternal and equal society! Theory has a lot to do with this, we usually say that there is the epistemological issue and the ethical-political dimension, the dimensions of work, but epistemology itself already contains an ethical-political commitment.

T - Perfect, teacher!

MH - It’s one thing for you to think that the psychologist’s object of study and action is an object, just like objects of the Physical and Natural Sciences, and another thing for you to say no, Psychology, both in the production of knowledge and in the processes of action, in its praxis, is a science planted in the subject-subject relationship. The moment you define the other as a subject, you are already assuming an ethical-political stance that changes everything. Change the research method and ways of intervening.

T - Great! Highlighting the discussion of the psychologist’s political activity, there is an intrinsic relation between ethics and this political activity with a view to overcoming prejudices, difficulties, etc.

MH - It is very important to define what we understand by politician. In my view, psychologists are poorly trained. And I also include myself in this and try to overcome my shortcomings. Psychologists have the habit of understanding, when they hear the word politics, as party politics, and it is nothing like that. What is politics about? Of power relations in society, and the psychologist, through his specificity, dealing with relations among people, with subjectivities and intersubjectivities, can create conditions for establishing other relations among them than oppressive power relations that actually transform both the oppressor and the oppressed in things, both cease to be subjects, they cease to be people.

T - Lately, then, the issue of politics and political activity have become fundamental.

MH - Without a doubt, as long as we understand what this is! For example, the political dimension of a society is the dimension of power relations, this is where justice or injustice occurs.

T - Finishing... How would this political action come to fruition for school psychologists?

MH - I think it is precisely by inserting oneself into school institutions in a critical way, knowing that these institutions are socially determined, and proposing to do work within the school that, in some way, enables all its participants to rescue a dimension of themselves more autonomous, more reflective, more committed to life, something more lively and not something of mortifying rituals.

T - Perfect, Maria Helena! Would you have any further considerations to make?

MH - I think it’s an important thing too. Praxis, so to speak, committed to the liberation of people, a libertarian practice, is not alone. It is not the practice of a professional, as I said at the beginning. And this praxis can never be transformed into a formula, into a recipe! It has to be permanently alive and under construction! Because, from the moment you write a book giving all the action steps of the libertarian psychologist, you transform this into something that the system quickly incorporates and transforms into an absolutely conservative practice, with an appearance of a liberating practice. So, the psychologist’s work cannot become a formula or a recipe! In fact, many people want formulas and recipes, however, the most we can have they are the guiding principles of this practice.

T - So, just to conclude and taking a point, since we are discussing the possibilities of building these critical perspectives of Psychology and the work of school psychologists, it seems to me, based on our conversation, that these perspectives need to be in constant construction and discussion, it seems that there is no time to consolidate, to conclude definitively, is that it?

MH - Exactly! They cannot mineralize, because from the moment they become fixed, they die, they become a ritual and again you will have a Psychology and an object psychologist, dealing with a client, a subject, a group, whatever it may be, objectified too.

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• 3
  There was no financial support
• 4
  This paper was translated from Portuguese by Ana Maria Pereira Dionísio

Publication Dates

• Publication in this collection
  26 Aug 2023
• Date of issue
  2024

History

• Received
  13 Dec 2021
• Accepted
  04 Mar 2022